An interesting discussion on Television on the morning of 21st December 2009, following these comments from Tony Abbott, the Federal Opposition Leader:
“I think everyone should have some familiarity with the great texts that are at the core of our civilisation,” said the Federal Opposition leader.
“That includes, most importantly, the Bible.”
“I think it would be impossible to have a good general education without at least some serious familiarity with the Bible and with the teachings of Christianity.”
“That doesn’t mean that people have to be believers.”
The TV segment included a discussion with an Anglican Minister, and an Atheist, and the highlight to me, was when the Atheist, who is against the bible being read in school, said that the bible does not encourage discussion, which prompted the Anglican to explain that it actually does, and that the Atheist should read it to better understand what it actually does say.
The atheist responded by saying that she did read the bible when young, as she was in a Presbyterian family.
My conclusion to this segment was that both of them seemed to be very intelligent people, with a solid ability to discuss the subject sensibly and calmly.
Both of them have also read the bible when young…
My opinion:  After realising that both these people have read the bible, it does seem to give more strength to the argument that it is a good idea.  Especially when you compare those two people against people who have never read it.
All schools have compulsory book reading classes, it is part of English, what would be wrong in using the Bible for this, instead of books such as “The Outsider”, which is my child’s current book for year 9.
Islamic advisor Dr Ameer Ali, talking about Mr Abbott’s remarks said: “It’s one thing to say every child needs a good knowledge of history and geography or science, but it is something else to say all children should have a knowledge of the Bible. That might hurt other people who have their own holy scriptures.”
My opinion on this…
Australia is a predominantly Christian country, it therefore makes sense to follow Christian teachings. Â Both Jewish schools insist that their faith is taught in their schools, so do Muslim schools, and other specific religious based schools.
What is wrong with a country having a little Religious Education in the national syllabus ?
We had Religious Education when I was growing up, and I am sure it did me no harm.  I am sure I learnt some things from it, and I am sure that the Atheist mentioned above, also learnt from it.  And I can count on one hand the number of times I have been to Church in the last 30 years.
Australia’s Religious make-up
1996 Census
- 77.92% Christian 12,582,800
- 1.24% Buddhism 199,800
- 1.24% Islam 200,900
- 0.42% Hinduism 67,300
- 0.49% Judaism 79,800
- 0.42% Other Non-Christian 68,600
- 18.26% No Religion 2,948,900
2006 Census
- 72.50% Christian 12,685,800
- 2.39% Buddhism 418,800
- 1.95% Islam 340,400
- 0.85% Hinduism 148,100
- 0.51% Judaism 88,800
- 0.62% Other Non-Christian 109,000
- 21.18% No Religion 3,706,600
The above percentage figures exclude those that gave no answer to the question.
Source: ABS – 2006 Census of Population and Housing. Table 1. Change in religious affiliations.
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“What is wrong with a country having a little Religious Education in the national syllabus ?”, you ask.
Why not have a little Santa Claus Education as well? A vast majority celebrate Xmas, so Santa must be real, right?
Why should religious belief be privileged by the government over non-religion?
Or to pose a hypothetical – if the tables were turned, would you be happy with your child being forced to take Koranic religious instruction at school? No, I thought not.
Put simply, using the levers of government to impose religion is ethically WRONG. It would unfairly deprive people of free choice. Baptist Reverend Nathan Nettleton (9 November 2009) wisely said, “The state should not privilege the convictions of any particular religious tradition, even a majority tradition, over the convictions of those who dissent from it”.
If I was living in a country where the national religion was Muslim (Koranic religious instruction), and it IS compulsory, I would have to accept it, except I probably wouldn’t, so I choose to live in a Christian country.
If I put my child into a Catholic school, I would accept that they would have Catholic religious instruction, but the options are available in this country if people wish to have an alternative religion. There are Muslim schools, there are Jewish schools, there are Lutheran schools.
Is it wrong for a Christian country to choose Christian religion for its State schools, but also allow other religions to co-exist alongside.
Christmas is actually the celebration of Christ, (ie: Christianity) not Santa.
An interesting point appears:
Some people do not want Christianity taught in Australian schools, yet they make no mention of stopping Muslim and Jewish religions being taught.
Should ALL religion be banned from ALL schools ?
How would that sit with some people ?
In the 21st century it is inappropriate to indoctrinate children into believing that we are here because something supernatural happened.
In regards to “indoctrinate”, I agree completely, but we must teach every aspect wherever possible, so that the young minds can learn to make judgements themselves.
In a country where about two thirds of the population state that they are Christians, there is a right to ensure that education is provided in the subject.
There is also a right for children to be held out of religious studies if they so desire.
For Christians or any other mob to impose their poisonous delusions on working-class children through the public education system is an absolutely outrageous, and fundamentally anti-democratic, anti-secular and immoral thing to do. If you want to brainwash your kids, YOU do yourself, or if your rich YOU pay for it. Do not subject my child to the abuse of religious indoctrination. You people should be ashamed of yourselves; you’re completely ignorant as what “freedom of religion” is, and how secularism is the ONLY means of safe guarding that freedom available in our system in its present form. Quite frankly, it ought to teach any religion in a state school should solicit charges of child abuse. Some critical, secular (impartial), analysis of a cross section of religious dogmas would be acceptable in the context of ethics and values education (which are fundamentally different from religious indoctrination).
Perhaps if it weren’t for the rise conservatism and capitalism repeated around the world since enlightenment all that unprecedented cultural capital generated, especially the breaking free of epistemological shackles that helped hold us back for millions of years, would to be dying now at the hands of religion. We’re suffering a systematic societal regress that is both caused by, and reflected in the grow of, religion. How long before our social atavism renders us corporatist & despotic theocracies, and returns us intellectually and culturally to the cave from whence we came?
If I was in a predominantly Muslim country I would not only accept Islam to be taught at school but would expect it. Other cultures don’t share our cultural cringe.
Barnaby give it a rest. There is nothing poisonous about Christian belief whether or not you consider it a delusion. Christians aren’t perfect. However thanks to Christianity we have the abolition of slavery, widespread literacy, many hospitals and charities, modern science and a unique tolerance.
Noone said anything about brainwashing and indeed Admin who supports this opposes indoctrination. Calling religious education abuse is demagogery. You should also apologise to victims of child abuse for your shameful trivialising of their suffering by claiming that a little religious education is comparable.
It would also hardly be undemocratic to teach Christianity in a overwhelmingly majority Christian country. It is ironic that you want to impose the secular minority approach on schools but claim going with the majority view is undemocratic.
This seems to tie in with your other claim being that secularism is the ONLY means of safe guarding that freedom available in our system in its present form. Historically in strongly secularised countries like Pol Pott’s Cambodia and Communist Russia and China freedom was incredibly restricted. Freedom seems to flourish most in Christian societies.
Barnaby did make a very interesting and partially valid observation. This comment:
I say partially because the first part I do agree with, we do seem to be suffering what could be called “a systematic societal regress” however, to say it is caused by a growth in religion, is, I feel, somewhat untrue.
The following chart shows the reduction in Christian beliefs by the Australian Population, according to the Annual census between 1901 and 2001.
This is a pretty consistent reduction, and using Barnaby’s argument that the change in society behaviour is caused by the change in our religious beliefs, does indicate that we actually need more religion again, according to Barnaby’s theory.
More on… Religion in Australia
ABCDiamond,
Point well made. That is ironic. So to is:
“…secularism is the ONLY means of safe guarding that freedom available in our system in its present form. Quite frankly, it ought to teach any religion in a state school should solicit charges of child abuse.”
Supposedly secularism safe guards freedom. However this secularism would include serious criminal charges for including the majority belief relating to religion in State Schools. I assume that child abuse charges would result in jail. That type of ‘freedom’ seems a little too totalitarian for me.
These types of ideas attract the label of “new atheism” and those who express them “new atheists”. New atheists consider theistic society inevitably bad because some bad things happened in the Middle Ages and all the good things that happened somehow don’t count. They distinguish their proposed society from the old atheist societies including Pol Pott’s Cambodia, Communist Soviet Union, and Communist China on the basis that old atheist society didn’t jail people on religious grounds “in the name of atheism”. That differentiation might give them comfort but it doesn’t comfort me.
Further, the next step after deeming religion in state schools to be child abuse and jailing those concerned is palpable. Is it possible to have something defined as criminal child abuse in state schools and not in private schools? That would be like sexual molestation resulting in jail in public schools but okay in private schools. I believe that that is not possible. The similarity between new atheists idea of how society should be and old atheists idea about how society should be is startling.
I would be simply be happy if the Education Department of Queensland could very simply follow the Act’s and Regulations put in place by our govenment.
If I were to break a law I’m sure I would be punished, so how can they get away with it???
Religion has always been a personal choice. I believe that the child’s parent should decide what kind of education is suitable for the child. If they want their child to be open minded to many different religions, send them to a public school, where they will be able to, when they grow up, make their own personal choice about what religion, if any, they wish to follow. If parents want a Christian faith for their child, send them to a christian school, where they can focus on learning the christian faith. But under no circumstances should religion be forced on the child, in the end it must be their own decision. I have been to both a non-denomintional and a catholic school, and i have found that the non-denominational school had a better grip with reality, and encouraged open-mindedness rather than blind following. But for many young people, religious education appears to be preoccupied with useless, factual/descriptive details which reinforce the view they already have that religion has little relevance to contemporary society or their own lives.Yes, our children should be educated in the christian faith, but not in a way that assumes it is correct. Our children should be taught respect for religious diversity, without a focus on the confusing contradictions.
One thing I find interesting is that my childs Christian school (not Catholic) also teaches about dinosaurs etc., which, as far as I recall, were not in the bible.
I believe that if all children learnt about the different Religions at school. There would be a better understanding of each others points of view and a better tolerance of others ideas. Most of us follow the Religion of our parents. With understanding and teaching we will be able to make choices. We may choose to celebrate and warship or just follow Traditions, but not really believe. We all need to learn boundaries and be able to follow rules, in life. We need to learn tolerance and understanding of others and their beliefs. So long as we remain Free to make those choices and we try to live in peace and harmony. There are enough problems in the world, such as illness, money issues and natural disasters. Live and let Live and Give Peace a Chance and Tolerance.